Curse

Vanquisher · Feb 04, 2008, 02:24 PM // 14:24

So I had a post all written out, ready to be posted, asking why this is even a discussion that's reached 7 pages, but I figured I'd go for something possibly more to the point, albeit more cynical.

Why bother?

I think it's pretty apt in considering any calls for better balance updates, good changes to mechanics, and the like, considering with the focus so blatantly solely on Guild Wars 2, a true ArenaNet response would be exactly the same.

JR · Feb 04, 2008, 06:06 PM // 18:06

It might just push them to learn from their mistakes for Guild Wars 2, if anything.

Shuuda · Feb 04, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

It might just push them to learn from their mistakes for Guild Wars 2, if anything.

Although everything would be magical and wonderful if that happened, most people doubt that would ever happen.

Killed u man · Feb 04, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Which is why Anet shouldn't count me in for buying their game. Simply for the fact that they will, and they will, abandon GW2 after a year or so, because they are working on something 'new'...

GW is dying because Anet doesn't have the devotion to keep it fresh. I doubt this will change with GW2...

Imo, Anet should start focusing on RPG's. I have to give it to them, they make a HELL of a game Lore/Graphical Wise, however, they fail at mainting it...

DreamWind · Feb 04, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

I honestly believe Anet didn't know what they had their hands on with Guild Wars. They didn't realize how incredible their PvP originally was, and thus didn't maintain it properly (and still don't maintain it properly) due to PvE taking over. For this reason, I have zero hopes for Guild Wars 2.

Shuuda · Feb 04, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Lets face it, did A-net really add sin thinking they would be a benefit to PvP. Or did they make them to please nooby Ninja Wannabes who wanted leet fast killing character whom they could name after possibly homosexual characters from a crap, overrated Anime show?

A-net won't change sins, because they'll lose that huge audience, it's just business.

Dominator1370 · Feb 04, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Which is why Anet shouldn't count me in for buying their game. Simply for the fact that they will, and they will, abandon GW2 after a year or so, because they are working on something 'new'...

GW is dying because Anet doesn't have the devotion to keep it fresh. I doubt this will change with GW2...

Imo, Anet should start focusing on RPG's. I have to give it to them, they make a HELL of a game Lore/Graphical Wise, however, they fail at mainting it...

It's not that they don't care, it's that Izzy has no clue what he's doing, and I really have to question Anet's decision to leave him in charge. Of course, how Anet still don't know what they're doing baffles me. I mean, people (like the ones on this forum) are doing more than half Izzy's job for him. It blows my mind that not only is game balance not getting better, it's getting worse.

Speaking of people who do Izzy's job, we should start an "Ensign for head of the balance team in GW2" petition (and note that I said team, not "that guy we told to take care of the... thing for us").

Oh, and Vanquisher, I think it has something to do with the vain hope that if we lay out a beneficial, easy to implement change or series of changes that would drastically improve one situation or another, maybe we can get someone on the other end to push the buttons and try it out, because if they can't make a beneficial change with tons of people screaming at them, they sure aren't going to up and decide to make them on their own.

Sinful Doom · Feb 04, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Why bother?

qft.

I guess we do it in the off chance that someday it might actually make a difference. O.o

wuzzman · Feb 04, 2008, 08:26 PM // 20:26

you got enough idiots talking and eventually the game goes to hell

Captain Robo · Feb 04, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Think of this issue in terms of forum distribution.

The majority of people who frequent this particular forum are actually good at the game.

The majority of people who frequent Riverside Inn are awful-mediocre at PVP, sightly better at PVE.

The thing is... Guild Wars sucks for pve. You could do a hell of a lot better than this game if you want PVE content. Yet for some reason, nobody really realizes this, or cares. The PVE player base outnumbers us PVPers by at least one order of magnitude.

All Anet has to do in order to keep the majority of their player base happy is to keep doing what they're doing. PVP updates will not inhibit farming or ursanway or whatever the hell you do in this game when you're not playing against other people.

wuzzman · Feb 04, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Anet never cared about pve farmering builds. Anet doesn't care about Gladiator’s Arena.

Kaon · Feb 04, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

If you actually look at the balance update, you can see Izzy does appear to be learning sometimes. Therefore this discussion is usefull.

And my expectations are irrationally ridiculously insanely high. So high it can only turn out as a huge disappointment

Captain Robo · Feb 04, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

dishonor hex

Seriously, do you try to be wrong all the time or is it just an astonishing lucky run?

I think he meant this forum. And I'll agree with that. Andrew Patrick is the only one who seems to care, and his input seems to mean absolutely nothing to the balance team.

Either that, or he's misinforming them. At any rate, I still don't see why we need a middleman.

Quote:

And my expectations are irrationally ridiculously insanely high. So high it can only turn out as a huge disappointment

I remember looking forward to skill balances

Now it seems mostly about the lulz.

ensoriki · Feb 05, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Basically (TL;DR version) if daggers are going to have crap maximum damage, bring the minimum damage up. Crit damage will stay where it is, non-crit auto-attacking won't have a good chance at being laughable, and sin DPS won't be a joke anymore. Of course, it's probably safe to tone down sin's instagib abilities without reprisal as long as you give them something else to do.

For one you say two hand weapons should be stronger. Are you basic this IRL? thats not even true IRL. A hammer uses both hands and thus applies more force, with daggers its a weapon in each hand, and in actually if your right handed your Left dagger would do Less damage so pfft.
Sin's aren't warriors, Warriors work through adrenaline and their Base damage.
While sin's work through Energy and their + damage.

No reason to raise Sin damage, you can still tweak sin's without ever touching the 7-17 of daggers.

wuzzman · Feb 05, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

tweak? you mean remove.

Dominator1370 · Feb 05, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

For one you say two hand weapons should be stronger. Are you basic this IRL? thats not even true IRL. A hammer uses both hands and thus applies more force, with daggers its a weapon in each hand, and in actually if your right handed your Left dagger would do Less damage so pfft.

Quit being an asshat.

In terms of the game, you put a piece of equipment in each hand. If you use a Sword or an Axe, you get a shield for added defense/health. If you use a Hammer or Scythe, you don't get that extra defense/health, but you can do some pretty scary damage, so it's ok. If you're using daggers, your damage certainly isn't better than a Sword/Axe, plus you don't get the extra defense/health. Daggers fail.

In terms of real life (which is all but irrelevant in a game, but I digress...) you may not be able to apply more force to a weapon by wielding one in each hand, but you'd think that what with having two pointy objects instead of one you'd be able to do more damage, no?

Oh, and if you want to bring handedness and ambidexterity into it, you'd apply less "bonus" force with your left hand on the hammer than the initial force of your right hand (assuming right-handedness) but it's totally irrelevant, since no one's arguing that the damage should be anywhere close to double. That would be unrealistic and (more importantly) incredibly imbalanced. Obviously there's going to have to be some kind of scale factor.

If you're not just trying to be a pain in the ass and you don't actually believe that it's "true IRL" that you can swing something harder with two hands, we can conduct a test: you can hit me in the head with a whiffle ball bat using one hand, and I'll hit you in the head using two. We'll see who's knocked unconscious first.

Please, think before you speak.

Quote:

Warriors work through adrenaline and their Base damage.
While sin's work through Energy and their + damage.

BS. If Warriors worked purely through their base damage, why do people run Evis + Executioners over, say, Dismember + Cleave? Simple: armor ignoring damage (+damage) is better than base damage, and damage compression is FTW to allow spiking a target down before they can be proted/healed. To get the most damage compression possible, you want the highest bonus damage possible in the shortest time. These things are as true on a Sin as on a Warrior. The fact that Sins use energy and Warriors use adrenaline is all but irrelevant in terms of attacks. If we were talking about utility, sure, but...

Quote:

Sin's aren't warriors ... No reason to raise Sin damage, you can still tweak sin's without ever touching the 7-17 of daggers.

Sins aren't warriors, no, but follow this with me: Warrior damage compression (specifically, Evis + Exec) is more or less the gold-standard for spike potential, especially in a melee class. If an adren spike (or energy attack-chain, whatever) can't compare to it, you may as well run an Axe Warrior. If it's much better, it starts to look unbalanced regardless of how bad that bar sucks at other things. Lolsin'ing someone isn't good for the game. Rediculous instagib combos need to be beaten in the head until they never come back.

One of the main reasons Warriors are so good is because while they aren't spiking, they can pressure. This is where dagger base damage becomes important. Namely, dagger damage sucks, so Sins can't really pressure very well. There are specific builds that can pressure (a la the Shattering Assault combo) but those don't have particularly exciting spike potential on their own. If we get rid of instagibing, sins are going to have to be able to pressure if they're going to see play.

Admittedly, there are multiple ways this can be achieved. We could, for example, create some kind of Sin preparations to increase damage when auto-attacking. However, it would be much easier and much more sensible to increase damage while auto-attacking by increasing damage while auto-attacking. Anything else is kind of roundabout.

Now, it's important to note that I'm saying Sin damage compression and ability to pressure need to be comparable to a Warrior's, not exactly the same. If they still can't pressure quite as well (though well enough to be somewhat effective), that's fine (and, as far as diversity goes, probably good) as long as there's some reason why someone could potentially want to take a Sin instead. As it stands, it seems like the best way to go would be to work on Sin utility. Sins are generally more mobile than Warriors and have more energy, so it's definitely possible to tweak sins so that while they can't pressure quite as well as Warriors (though certainly better than they do now), they are capable of using utility that a Warrior can't.

wuzzman · Feb 05, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

.........just remove sins from the game...or start giving axe mastery to sins

JR · Feb 05, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

No reason to raise Sin damage, you can still tweak sin's without ever touching the 7-17 of daggers.

For as long as their base damage sucks and their combos do a large amount of +damage they will suck. It forces them to rely on spiking with combos, and screws them against any kind of melee hate. Against a team with no form of block (Guardian/Aegis/SoD etc...) they could still pump out decent DPS with regular combos, but that just isn't going to happen in practice.

Their base damage vs their combo damage is one of the reasons why they suck as frontliners.

elektra_lucia · Feb 05, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Assassins should be re-worked in my opinion. They're just bleh. The whole combo thing is crap too.

ensoriki · Feb 05, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Quit being an asshat.

?????

Quote:

In terms of real life (which is all but irrelevant in a game, but I digress...) you may not be able to apply more force to a weapon by wielding one in each hand, but you'd think that what with having two pointy objects instead of one you'd be able to do more damage, no?

This is the case with Dual attacks.
When a sin auto attacks he's actually just hitting with 1 blade, when he dual attacks he hits with 2 and does more damage. This 2 weapons = More damage thing is already there.

Quote:

BS. If Warriors worked purely through their base damage, why do people run Evis + Executioners over, say, Dismember + Cleave? Simple: armor ignoring damage (+damage) is better than base damage, and damage compression is FTW to allow spiking a target down before they can be proted/healed. To get the most damage compression possible, you want the highest bonus damage possible in the shortest time. These things are as true on a Sin as on a Warrior. The fact that Sins use energy and Warriors use adrenaline is all but irrelevant in terms of attacks. If we were talking about utility, sure, but...

You misunderstand me at least I think you do, when I say warriors go through base damage and adrenaline I mean thats where there damage comes from, Base damage and Adrenaline skills, this doesn't mean adrenaline skills don't give + damage. I'm saying the opposite is different for sins, Dependent on skill damage and energy....similar to casters.

Quote:

One of the main reasons Warriors are so good is because while they aren't spiking, they can pressure. This is where dagger base damage becomes important. Namely, dagger damage sucks, so Sins can't really pressure very well. There are specific builds that can pressure (a la the Shattering Assault combo) but those don't have particularly exciting spike potential on their own. If we get rid of instagibing, sins are going to have to be able to pressure if they're going to see play.

You want dagger base damage so that they are not Spike and leave right?
Thats not the only way to make them stick in for longer.
Or at least I think I see another way.

Quote:

Admittedly, there are multiple ways this can be achieved. We could, for example, create some kind of Sin preparations to increase damage when auto-attacking. However, it would be much easier and much more sensible to increase damage while auto-attacking by increasing damage while auto-attacking. Anything else is kind of roundabout.

[skill]Locust's Fury[/skill] that didn't work out to well.

Quote:

Now, it's important to note that I'm saying Sin damage compression and ability to pressure need to be comparable to a Warrior's, not exactly the same. If they still can't pressure quite as well (though well enough to be somewhat effective), that's fine (and, as far as diversity goes, probably good) as long as there's some reason why someone could potentially want to take a Sin instead. As it stands, it seems like the best way to go would be to work on Sin utility. Sins are generally more mobile than Warriors and have more energy, so it's definitely possible to tweak sins so that while they can't pressure quite as well as Warriors (though certainly better than they do now), they are capable of using utility that a Warrior can't.

I don't have a problem with better utility. I'd much like it.

Quote:

A-net won't change sins, because they'll lose that huge audience, it's just business.

???????? I wouldn't leave the assassin class because there changed, as long as I continue to have fun with them I don't give a shit, and Im sure enough people feel that way that any loss is ignorable.